Prairie/cartridge belt ID
Moderator: 45govt
Prairie/cartridge belt ID
What are the differences between all the cartridge belt models? To me the 1876 and 1885 look very similar, how do you know which is which?
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Dick Hosmer
- Posts: 533
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:05 pm
- Location: Northern CA
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
A good source is Steve Dorsey's book on "American Military Belts and Related Equipment".
There are several variants of the 1876, but the 1885s are pretty much all the same. I am by no means a belt expert, but if one doesn't come along, I will post photos of of mine, a plain 1876, an RIA experimental (#2 of 100), and an 1885. Also have a couple of Mills, but none of the early rare buckles.
There are several variants of the 1876, but the 1885s are pretty much all the same. I am by no means a belt expert, but if one doesn't come along, I will post photos of of mine, a plain 1876, an RIA experimental (#2 of 100), and an 1885. Also have a couple of Mills, but none of the early rare buckles.
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
Texcl2,
You've asked a question that actually is quite complicated and cannot fully be answered without a long, detailed, multi-page response. Like most of the details of these weapons and accoutrements, it bears research to fully understand these cartridge belts. I highly recommend the following books for that research, and they will be worth their purchase prices simply in preventing you from buying artifacts that aren't what you thought they were.
1. "ARMING AND EQUIPPING THE U.S. CAVALRY - 1865-1902", by Dusan Farrington
2. "THE U.S. ARMY IN THE WEST, 1870-1880", by Douglas C. McChristian
3. "UNIFORMS, ARMS, AND EQUIPMENT, THE U.S. ARMY ON THE WESTERN FRONTIER, 1880-1892", also by Douglas C. McChristian
These books will serve you well in detailed descriptions of the weapons, uniforms, and equipments of the frontier American army, and you will find them invaluable.
To further answer your question, one of the primary differences between the M1876 Prairie Belt and the M1885 Cartridge belt is that the M1876 belt is built around a leather belt, with a drab linen canvas covering with the cartridge loops sewn on to the covering. The M1885 belt was a modification of the 1880 Mills cartridge belts. These belts were woven cartridge belts with the cartridge loops being actually part of the weave, i.e., Not being sewn on. The modification included having a leather buckle chape being sewn to one end, and a long, leather billet being sewn to the other end, allowing a wide variation of waist adjustment.
All these models of cartridge belts were wildly popular with the troops upon their issuance to the field. Their only real flaw was that none of the various types of cartridge belts allowed for holsters, bayonets, or other accoutrements to be hung from them without modification, and their are LOTS of variations in those modifications. Some of those modifications are arsenal applied and some are field applied, hence the need for some in depth research to completely understand them. Again, I highly recommend the books. To me, they are worth the price just to understand the early "H" buckles utilized with the 1880 Mills belts.
I hope this helps a bit. I truly enjoy this particular subject matter.
throck3
You've asked a question that actually is quite complicated and cannot fully be answered without a long, detailed, multi-page response. Like most of the details of these weapons and accoutrements, it bears research to fully understand these cartridge belts. I highly recommend the following books for that research, and they will be worth their purchase prices simply in preventing you from buying artifacts that aren't what you thought they were.
1. "ARMING AND EQUIPPING THE U.S. CAVALRY - 1865-1902", by Dusan Farrington
2. "THE U.S. ARMY IN THE WEST, 1870-1880", by Douglas C. McChristian
3. "UNIFORMS, ARMS, AND EQUIPMENT, THE U.S. ARMY ON THE WESTERN FRONTIER, 1880-1892", also by Douglas C. McChristian
These books will serve you well in detailed descriptions of the weapons, uniforms, and equipments of the frontier American army, and you will find them invaluable.
To further answer your question, one of the primary differences between the M1876 Prairie Belt and the M1885 Cartridge belt is that the M1876 belt is built around a leather belt, with a drab linen canvas covering with the cartridge loops sewn on to the covering. The M1885 belt was a modification of the 1880 Mills cartridge belts. These belts were woven cartridge belts with the cartridge loops being actually part of the weave, i.e., Not being sewn on. The modification included having a leather buckle chape being sewn to one end, and a long, leather billet being sewn to the other end, allowing a wide variation of waist adjustment.
All these models of cartridge belts were wildly popular with the troops upon their issuance to the field. Their only real flaw was that none of the various types of cartridge belts allowed for holsters, bayonets, or other accoutrements to be hung from them without modification, and their are LOTS of variations in those modifications. Some of those modifications are arsenal applied and some are field applied, hence the need for some in depth research to completely understand them. Again, I highly recommend the books. To me, they are worth the price just to understand the early "H" buckles utilized with the 1880 Mills belts.
I hope this helps a bit. I truly enjoy this particular subject matter.
throck3
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
[img][attachment=0]IMG_2339.jpg
Top - Model 1876 Prairie Belt
Bottom - M1885 Cartridge Belt
In between are samples of the 1880 Mills belts with variations of the belt plates and keepers issued with them in chronological order.
throck3
Top - Model 1876 Prairie Belt
Bottom - M1885 Cartridge Belt
In between are samples of the 1880 Mills belts with variations of the belt plates and keepers issued with them in chronological order.
throck3
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- IMG_2339.jpg (126.93 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
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Solidleadslug
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:26 pm
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
Who makes a good repro?
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
Solidleadslug,
I don't know who makes a good repro. You didn't specify which model to which you were referring. I've seen the repros of the M1876 prairie belts on Ebay. I don't consider them good repros of those types belts. Occassionally on Ebay, What Price Glory has excellent reproductions of the 1880 Mills belts with the colored selvage in either blue or yellow. Those belts are woven correctly, and the colors are good. The buckles, on the other hand, are a travesty. I know of NO good reproductions of any of the early "H" buckles issued with the new Mills cartridge belts. If you don't mind one of the later Model 1887 stamped "H" plates, then there are lots of those available, just no good earlier ones.
Now, if you are wanting a good drab, mouse colored 1880 Mills belt repro, What Price Glory, also makes one in the form of a later Mills belt with the brass captured, adjustable ends. All you have to do is cut the brass ends off, and sew several rows of the same color thread across the ends, or better yet, sew linen cloth capturing the ends, and there you go. The owner of WPG has found an existing loom that still weaves belts with the integral cartridge loops that are pretty much identical to the originals. You might find them at What Price Glory's website as well.
throck3
I don't know who makes a good repro. You didn't specify which model to which you were referring. I've seen the repros of the M1876 prairie belts on Ebay. I don't consider them good repros of those types belts. Occassionally on Ebay, What Price Glory has excellent reproductions of the 1880 Mills belts with the colored selvage in either blue or yellow. Those belts are woven correctly, and the colors are good. The buckles, on the other hand, are a travesty. I know of NO good reproductions of any of the early "H" buckles issued with the new Mills cartridge belts. If you don't mind one of the later Model 1887 stamped "H" plates, then there are lots of those available, just no good earlier ones.
Now, if you are wanting a good drab, mouse colored 1880 Mills belt repro, What Price Glory, also makes one in the form of a later Mills belt with the brass captured, adjustable ends. All you have to do is cut the brass ends off, and sew several rows of the same color thread across the ends, or better yet, sew linen cloth capturing the ends, and there you go. The owner of WPG has found an existing loom that still weaves belts with the integral cartridge loops that are pretty much identical to the originals. You might find them at What Price Glory's website as well.
throck3
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
Hello
Here is a link to What Price Glory on e-bay showing their Mills belt with the blue selvedge and then a photo of the real thing
Check WPG's other auctions for other belts and accoutrements
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233025211003?i ... Swn01b~2wY
Here is a link to What Price Glory on e-bay showing their Mills belt with the blue selvedge and then a photo of the real thing
Check WPG's other auctions for other belts and accoutrements
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233025211003?i ... Swn01b~2wY
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- 2nd cast buckle and blue Infantry edge.jpg (160.13 KiB) Viewed 1759 times
Thank You
Don
45govt
Don
45govt
Re: Prairie/cartridge belt ID
Throck3, thanks for the detailed response and pictures. I suppose the 1876 model must be fairly rare compared to the others as I haven’t seen many. I assumed the cartridge belts started out with the leather belt and buckle sewed in the they went to the big solid brass buckle type closure and lastly the brass C type wire closure as the last type during the Spanish war or was I mistaken about that? Thanks for the book references, I’ll definitely check them out.