Auction: EXTREMELY RARE EXPERIMENTAL US SPRINGFIELD MODEL 1868 TRAPDOOR CARBINE.

[FrankD]

Sharing with all the this auction i found.
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A_ ... 06637.aspx

Description
According to Albert Frasca's "The .45-70 Springfield Book II" just 4 Model 1868 trapdoor carbines were produced for trial, previous production in the trapdoor series only included rifles and cadet rifles. The first 3 were made in the last quarter of 1869 with the final gun made in early 1870. This appears to be the singular example manufactured in 1870, the breech block correctly marked "1870" over an eagle head, crossed arrows, and "US". Barrel is correctly unproofed and measures 22 - 1/4". Correct 2-piece front sight with brass blade and 700 yard graduated ladder rear. Long nose 1868 receiver and high arch breech block. Matching numbers observed on the left of receiver and barrel. Standard 1864 dated musket lock with 2-click tumbler. Specially made walnut carbine stock mounted with a single barrel band without stacking swivel, saddle ring bar, 2-piece trigger guard, and "US" marked cadet size buttplate. CONDITION: Good, exuding honest Western character. Carbine displays an even oxidized chocolate patina. Stock has heavy handling, dings, and abrasions throughout with an overall aged, dry appearance. Some chipping present at the toe along with a sliver of loss along the tang. Bore shows oxidation with visible rifling. Fine mechanics. A very rare opportunity for the advanced collector to acquire such a scarce and important developmental US martial arm, one of the very first trapdoor carbines produced. Barrel Length: 22 - 1/4" Caliber/Bore: .50-70 FFL Status: Antique Manufacturer: Springfield Model: 1868 Serial Number: 769

[TKacook]

Very interesting. I wish I had the funds for that.

[Dick Hosmer]

What can you say about 1 of 4? Almost anything is POSSIBLE, and what do you compare it to? That's a rifle slide, but maybe all they had? Don't like the seemingly abrupt color change in the wood at the band - but - maybe the first 4 WERE cutdowns? I do NOT like the heavy sling bar and ring - that is post-1877 style. All of the M1870 carbines and 20,000 early 1873's had the lightweight bar & ring. I also question, assuming it is accurately stated, the 22.25" barrel. VERY "un-Springfield" and, IF legit, would suggest to me that it might be #1, instead of #4...

A very "interesting" piece, and one that it would be nice (critical if buying) to inspect in person. It's either a REAL "sleeper" or what must be a pretty damn good fake. The problem when there are SO few examples, and SO little contemporary info is to know what is right and what isn't. I'd also like to know where it came from, and who might have owned it. For example, if Keith Rush's name came up on the list, I'd barf and run...

Thanks for sharing!!

[carlsr]

There's also an 1870 carbine posted on Proxibid.
I'm not sure at the moment what auction company has it listed, may be RIA???
I have my sights set on a forager which is in the gunslinger auction. Hopefully it won't go too high
Here is the 1870 carbine up for auction.
https://www.proxibid.com/Guns-Military- ... 1#topoflot

[FrankD]

Thank you Mr. Hosmer for your educational analysis.

[Tony Beck]

Probably the definitive article on these carbines in in the Dec. 2016 Man At Arms.

#769 is mentioned in that article and attributed to Vance Haynes. The photos in the article show a thick sling bar with the flat face M-1870 style lock screw tabs.

[Dick Hosmer]

Probably the definitive article on these carbines in in the Dec. 2016 Man At Arms.

#769 is mentioned in that article and attributed to Vance Haynes. The photos in the article show a thick sling bar with the flat face M-1870 style lock screw tabs.

I'll look that up - but invoking Vance Haynes completely changes the picture - if he said/says it's good, it is...

[Jim]

. . . . . .with the flat face M-1870 style lock screw tabs.

Tony . . . .What, exactly, are “lock screw tabs”?

[Dick Hosmer]

The referenced MAA article is excellent. I do recall having seen it, but apparently never went back and actually read it word for word, which i did do last night. While it raises as many questions as it does answers, I cannot imagine - at this point in time - a better description of the situation. The article is WELL worth reading. The basic take-away is that there was absolutely NO standardization on the trial pieces leading up to the Model 1870 Carbine, which of course, is quite scarce/rare in its' own right.

In a related vein, I have been contacted recently by a gentleman who owns an 1870 Carbine in a thick-wrist, long-comb, stock of post 1877 style. He believes it to be original SA work - I do not; I think someone, much later, came across the metal in a really bad stock, and decided (being unaware of the fine differences) to re-stock it for display. It is attributed to several "advanced collectors", none of whom I had ever heard of (and we diehard TD nutjobs are a pretty tight group).

[Tony Beck]

That MAA article is definitely a keeper. I have it scanned to my Trapdoor file for easy reference.

One the sling bar tabs... These are plates that are welded to the ends of the bar. They secure the bar to the lock plate screws. On 45-70 carbines the faces are contoured to match the curve of the stock. The early bar tabs are flat faced, since they align with the musket style stock flat opposite the lock.

Most of the non-Springfield 50-70 carbines have 45-70 sling bars, which are instantly recognizable because the screw tabs are contoured and don't match the flat of the stock.