carbine 12221

[Tom Trevor]

Carbine 12221 is in the December 6-8 auction at Rock Island auctions. Long write up about Capt Jackson turning it in as damaged after Little Big Horn battle.
A look in Dicks book 1873-93 shows the number with * indicating problems. Is this the carbine that was arsenal redone as a cadet rifle and an individual in Las Vegas turned it back to a carbine? It can be yours for 65,000.00- 110,000.00.

[John S.]

Here is a link to the current RIA listing
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detai ... ng-carbine

The Mallory letter verifies records reporting that M1873 carbine serial number 12221 was turned in after LBH, so I think we can agree that some documentation for this number exists.

I will leave it to others (and prospective bidders) to decide if this gun is the one documented in the letter, or if it is a parts assembly on what is likely an original receiver with number 12221.

A couple of observations which make me curious, but not necessarily skeptical about the history of this gun.

12221 is the ONLY M1873 carbine listed in SRS between 9623 and 14527, with 131 other numbers being M1873 or 1884 rifles (plus 10 M1868s). I doubt if Mallory made a transcription error, but not so sure about some clerk at Fort Totten in 1877. The SRS letter in the listing is a faxed copy, and lacks the copy of the source document which Mallory attached to the original.

SRS lists 54 arms in the shipment of 080477 ranging from serial number 3813 to 66066, including RIFLES with serial number 12043 and 12869 closest to the 12221 carbine number.
22 M1873 carbines are listed
30 M1873 rifles are listed, including one "73M' from the 17th Infantry which I assume is a typo for a rifle.
2 M1868 rifles number 4382 and 10396 from the 1st and 17th Infantry respectively.

Five (or more?) of the M1873 carbines are noted with 6-25-76 dates and I sure would like to see the source documents on those, although they have the same 0804 77 shipment to SA notation. This suggests that the shipment was not only LBH debris, but unservicaeble arms on hand as of 080477 from various sources.

As they say, "buy the gun, not the story."
They also say "A sucker is born every minute."

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, Tom, it is. Let me clarify the situation...

For some reason, I can be wonky about numbers. 12221 is one of those that I always kept in my mind. Many years back, I can recall seeing that number in a Keith Rush ("Trapdoors Galore" for the newbies) ad, as a CADET. I telephoned him and asked what the hell was going on, as that IS a recorded carbine number. He (whom you will recall, fancied himself to be something of a know-it-all) was taken completely aback and said he "didn't know anything about it." The gun quickly disappeared from the ad, and I heard later (from Ed Green at the Presidio [SF] Army Museum) that it had been rebuilt as a carbine. That now stands confirmed. Unfortunately, Mr. Rush was NOT an honest person - the fraternity does NOT miss him.

SO, no matter WHAT the present ad (I've not yet viewed it) says, the arm is absolutely NOT a virgin piece, period, end of report.

In the not-too-distant future, us old farts who know where (at least some of) the bodies are buried, will have passed on to Fiddler's Green, and the honeyed words (I HAVE now read the RIA ad and am tempted to notify them) of the auction houses will say whatever they want to, but, for now, they are still subject to "fact-checking"........ Yes, I've 'restored' a few things myself (such as 197404) but make no effort to pass them as real.

[Chris1]

It does look like the barrel and breech were on there for long time the patina does match, Everything else looks replaced. The cartouche looks odd.

[Dick Hosmer]

It does look like the barrel and breech were on there for long time the patina does match, Everything else looks replaced. The cartouche looks odd.

Well, sadly, some fakes are very well-done! Nothing in the photographs can overcome the facts I stated - the carbine IS a put-together. I agree that the cartouche would bear further inspection.

I have, this morning, notified RIA of the facts - we shall see what, if anything, they do with them. In the past, some of their offerings have acquired, rightly or wrongly, a certain whiff of caveat emptor. How much a receiver is worth may be known at close of auction.

[FrankTrost]

Thank you for sharing this information. As a new collector, I greatly appreciate it. Would you consider starting a thread on fakes or issues? Or is this complied somewhere currently?
Thanks

Frank

[Dick Hosmer]

[See new thread FAKERY AND HOW TO SPOT IT]

[FrankD]

Thank you for the information and knowledge. Always learning! I wonder if the description will change.

[John S.]

Dick- I would prefer to keep comments on a specific item in a single thread.

General comments can go under a different thread, and I drafted what I thought was a pretty good introduction, but apparently I made some mistake and instead of getting posted it vanished. Too busy (and unhappy about that) to attempt to rewrite it,

Please take your stock comment above and start a new thread on FAKERY AND HOW TO SPOT IT.
Then come back and delete the one here, so this can remain focused on 12221.
Thanks

Thanks also to Don Harpold who toils away in the background approving new posters, and terminating spam posts. That gave me time to mess with the Newsletters which will appear periodically.

[45govt]

I have, this morning, notified RIA of the facts - we shall see what, if anything, they do with them. In the past, some of their offerings have acquired, rightly or wrongly, a certain whiff of caveat emptor. How much a receiver is worth may be known at close of auction.
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I have heard or read that the only thing guaranteed in these listings is the main title of the auction piece. So I doubt they would change anything. But who knows?