50k-65k Carbine Serial 36457 Auction

[FrankD]

All shared as an FYI: Carbine 36457 auction via North American Auction https://live.naabid.com/online-auctions ... 73-6294685

Item description below.
This is an original Custer Battlefield U.S. Springfield Model 1873 trapdoor carbine (S/N) 36457 belonging to Second Lieutenant Benjamin Hubert Hodgson, Company B of the U.S. 7TH Cavalry. The rifle was noted as being captured by Fools Bear (Fools Bear was noted by John A. Kopec as being listed as turning in firearms including a Colt SAA #4878 in the National Archives records). The Custer Battlefield high serial number range has been documented as 33,000 – 43,700. Gun No. 13 Springfield U.S. Model 1873 Serial Number 36451 is documented as matching eight .45-55 cartridge cases from the Reno-Benteen defense area found along the soldier’s retreat line from Weir Point, on Sharpshooters Ridge. One author noted, “..a carbine that falls within nine or 10 serial numbers of a documented battle carbine has a good chance of being a battle relic. Carbine serial number 36461 in our study group falls close to two known 7th Cavalry carbines (#36419 and #36451) and two highly likely carbines (#36442 and #36481)… it is becoming increasingly obvious that few 36400 serial number range carbines will be found, and that there is an ominous and unusual gap in the listings. This would seem to bear out the belief that a sizeable group of these carbines fell into Indian hands.” With this carbine being serial number 36457 only six serial numbers away from a document carbine with forensic confirmation this is clearly an authentic Custer Battlefield carbine. Furthermore this rifle was identified as having Togia Lakota language marks by expert Wendell Grangaard of The Guns of History. This 1873 Springfield Trapdoor Carbine belonged to Second Lieutenant Benjamin Hubert Hodgson, Company B, 7th Cavalry. Hodgson was killed by Fools Bear (aka Afraid of Nothing Bear) during the valley fight at the ford of Little Bighorn on that fateful day. Fools Bear took Hodgson’s carbine, watch and revolver off his body. Later as recorded by the Busmark Tribune on November 25, 1876: “General Carlin informs us that he received through Indains the watch beloging to Lieutenant B.H. Hodgson, 7th Cavalry..” Returned to Post Commander of the Cheyenne River Agency Lieutenant George P. Buell and relayed by General Carlin commander of the Standing Rock Reservation and returned to the family. After the Little Bighorn some of the Miniconjou and Sanarc made concession with General Nelson Miles to surrender at Cheyenne River Agency including Fools Bear in September / October of 1876. He became a favorite scout of General Miles and was allowed to keep the S/N 36457 carbine. Later as noted in the National Archives records on a John A. Kopec letter included in the provenance Colt SAA Revolver #4878 was turned in by the Indian Fools Bear on September 5, 1876. The carbine is marked with the band marks of Sitting Bullin old trade square shank brass tacks on both sides of the stock (illustration 1). The Touch the Cloud’s Wakpokinyan Band is on the right side of the stock in square shank brass tacks, but the tops of the tacks have fallen off or been removed (illustration 2). On the left side of the stock is Fools Bear’s togia mark along with a version of his surrender. He also marked the rifle with battle marks for the three important battles he participated in: Rosebud, Little Bighorn and Slim Buttes (illustration 3). Paperwork documentation is included with his lot. Not only is this serial number in the documented Little Bighorn Custer Carbine serial range, it is only six numbers away from a gun forensically documented as being from the battlefield, noted as being Hodgson’s carbine it also has the documented Lakota Tack marks and carvings as well as being from Fool’s Bear, an Indian who had three documented returned items from Kopec, National Archives, General Carlin and the Bismarck Tribune. Truly a historic and rare piece, one of the strongest Little Bighorn Carbines offered for sale. Appears to function, hammer clicks back twice, trigger releases it, trapdoor clicks open and closed.

[John S.]

P.T. Barnum was right. A sucker is born every minute.

The gun itself looks to be a genuine carbine to me, but I remain skeptical about the story, as I am of virtually all "Custer stuff."

This gun remains unsold with no bid at the $35,000 starting point, in an auction of items that previously failed to sell. At a small auction outfit Inever heard of (which may be a great one, I just don't know them). I believe it was probably part of the huge "Guns of History" auction in Las Vegas in January 2023, done by another small outfit I never heard of (which may be a great one, I just don't know them).

The guy peddling this stuff, Wendell Grangaard, is a self-proclaimed expert on Togia language which apparently he is the sole expert on, with many people skeptical about whatever it is supposed to be.

The only documentation is a letter from Grangaard vaguely citing two secondary sources form the 21st century.

Here are some links mentioning his stuff:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/in ... ic=80104.0

https://indianz.com/News/2023/01/10/auc ... e-bighorn/

https://hyperallergic.com/794680/native ... artifacts/

https://bid.poulinauctions.com/SPRINGFI ... _i50452176 a Poulin auction of a decent looking carbine with a Grangaaard story and "A metal Indian Police tag from the US Department of Indian Affairs dated 1888" you can see in the photos and judge for yourself how old it is. It is possible that this sale in November 2023 was for an item from the January 2023 Las Vegas auction.

Decide for yourself, but Barnum's observation suggests that someone, some day, will purchase this item. And, perhaps an education.
YMMV.

[Dick Hosmer]

Just one quick observation:

While the number is certainly in the proper range for LBH, there is NO way in hell that rear sight is original to that carbine, period! Given that - what else has been "massaged"?

Also, and this is admittedly subjective, Grangaard makes my skin crawl, in the same way that Col. Shockley's writings did.

[Dick Hosmer]

And as to the Poulin gun . . . .

Plenty of red flags: SA did NOT use narrow blocks in wide receivers!!! It's evidently not a star (which would have explained/excused the early hammer and lock plate. Any ten-year old with a blade and a bit of instuction can make "togia" marks. Gun is WAY too nice to have been Indian-carried. Was the word "ammo" even used in 1888? Was aluminum? Nice-looking tag, but WHY date specific? Anyone ever seen another? I'd expect that would have been individually stamped just like the number, which isn't, so how do you know there is any relationship? Once again, whwn I see Grangaard's name, I start looking for my barf-bag. I wonder if he is related to the late Keith Rush?

[FrankD]

Thank you all for the comments, very educational and informative!